Safety Tales Podcast Season 2 Episode 13: Choosing the right hand protection

Intro:

Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales, the only industrial safety podcast that brings you common sense advice on job site safety, standards, regulations, and industry best practices, without putting you to sleep.

Fred:

Alright, we're back again with Fred and Dave here with Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales. Glad you made it back, I'm playing a little bit hurt today, I got the strep.

Dave:

Got the little sniffles there ...

Fred:

Got a little strep, so if you hear me coughing in the background, my apologies. But I did have the ...

Dave:

He looks like shit, but he did show up.

Fred:

Yeah, so, I'm here playing hurt. We're on day two of antibiotics, so I'm over that 24 hour hurdle, so I'm at least able to climb out of bed, so I'm glad for that.

Dave:

Been a lot of that going around though. I mean everybody I've talked to, I was talking to my girlfriend, and they almost had to cancel school in her school system because they didn't have enough bus drivers ...

Fred:

'Cause all the bus drivers were sick?

Dave:

They had enough bus drivers that went down with the flu that they were critically trying to figure out how they were gonna get everybody that was still well enough to walk to school.

Fred:

Yeah, it's amazing to me. And especially the way that different viruses and different things affect people differently, I had strep throat actually earlier this year, and it was like my throat was swollen, it didn't hurt nothing, it looked disgusting in the mirror, and [crosstalk 00:01:27] ...

Dave:

... cottage cheese in the back of your neck?

Fred:

Yeah. It looked like that, and otherwise I was completely fine, and then I took antibiotics and it went away.

And then this time I'm laying in bed shivering, and then sweating two minutes, later laying on top of the covers, drenching everything around me, trying to take sips of water like I'm on the Sahara desert, like shaking and putting the water in my mouth, spilling it all over my face.

Dave:

Oh, good thing you're in a hotel, right?

Fred:

Oh yeah, I didn't even tell you, that was ...

Dave:

[crosstalk 00:01:56] to change the sheets?

Fred:

Yeah. I got two beds, so I'm gonna sleep in the other bed. I'm sleeping in the other bed tonight for sure.

But I had in the middle of night, I didn't mention this to you that, so my spit is really, not to be too disgusting, but my spit is really thick from all like the ... So I got cottonmouth a little bit.

And so in the middle of the night I had a loogie that I was spitting into the toilet, and it just was hanging, I couldn't get it to go away.

So I reach over to grab a towel off the sink, I grab and I wipe, and I didn't realize I was grabbing two towels. And so I bring it to my face and the second towel drops directly into the toilet as I'm having the chills in the middle of the night. So I have to pull this towel out of the toilet and throw it into the bathtub and let it hang out there overnight.

So anyways, things are lovely for me. So ...

Dave:

Yeah, it sounds like you're on the mend, so that's a good thing.

Fred:

Hopefully I'm doing better, but ... So again we're here with Quad City Safety, we're on Linkedin, we're on Twitter, I'm QCSafety Fred on Twitter, we have a Facebook page, so anyway that you wanna reach out for any of our content, we had a lot of good stuff out there ...

Dave:

We have a fax machine.

Fred:

We got the fax machine, we just started a resources page on our website.

Dave:

Yeah, really super excited about that.

Fred:

So there's lots of good info out there on quadcitysafety.com, at the top of the screen you can click resources and really on any of the hazard categories that we talk about, product categories.

We're gonna be continuing to add to that, but we are pretty excited that there's a lot of good information on there to check out.

Dave:

We tried to make it practical too so they don't read like a real dry, like you literally wanna hang yourself about halfway through it, we try to do it just how we do it here, just in [crosstalk 00:03:36] ...

Fred:

Layman's terms.

Dave:

Yep.

Fred:

Yep. So recently Dave was at the North Dakota safety show, and we have a bunch of glove suppliers that we work with, you can track down a couple of them.

So we're gonna get on with an interview with somebody that kinda knows their shit in the realm of hand protection. Live from the North Dakota safety show, I'll let Dave do the introductions and the interview, so here we go.

Dave:

Okay, here we go. I'm here with Mike Hemming at the North Dakota Safety Council show. Good afternoon Mike. How are you doing buddy?

Mike:

Good afternoon David, how are you?

Dave:

Good. So how's the show been for you?

Mike:

The show has been very productive, it's been busy.

Dave:

Right on. So you know, tell ... Give them a little, not a real deep dive, but just kind of overview of who Global Glove is.

Mike:

We're a safety glove, safety glass, and a high vis manufacturer based out of Minnesota, Ramsey, Minnesota. Fairly new, we're gonna be a 15 year old company this year, and we specialize in coated, cut resistance, and impact.

Dave:

Okay, so realistically, cut resistance is one of the real pillars of you guys and a lot of your growth. Looking at where the marketplace was and with this change in the standard in where things are going, what do you think you're seeing there? What are the trends?

Mike:

Well, basically when we came into the glove market, we actually control and we have an ownership in our dipping plant and our knitting plant. And the way technology has come, it used to be a lot of cottons, your leathers, your string [inaudible 00:05:17] style. Well, with the technology that's out there now, we're getting a better product, a safer product.

With the cut resistant, the new engineered yarns that are out there, not just your Kevlar and Dyneemas, there's a lot of other product out there that'll fit your hands, they're a lot safer, and they're less expensive, and you don't have the inconsistencies you would with your cottons, your leathers.

So with the new styles and colors that's out there, it's a lot more safe for the employees, and getting a lot different size range.

Dave:

But with you're also seeing with some of the newer fibers, you're seeing some prices that are more attractive than at [crosstalk 00:05:57] ...

Mike:

They are, yes. We're actually, with some of the newer fibers that are out there, the pricing has gotten to be very consistent.

So you're not gonna have your ups and downs as you would with your commodities and your leathers and stuff. And they're a lot less expensive than your leathers, whether it be your goat or deer or cow, pig.

Dave:

Yeah. So you know, obviously being in the safety market, you have to have a little bit of passion about what you're doing or why you're doing it. So why are you here, man?

Mike:

You know, I've been doing safety for almost 15 years now, and for some reason or another, gloves grab me. No pun intended, but it's a hands on application ...

Dave:

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike:

Between the safety glasses and gloves, you gotta have them on, you gotta try them out. I was fortunate enough to be trained by Mr. Grindwhitener, he used to be the VP of [inaudible 00:06:47] before [inaudible 00:06:48] bought him out. He started up Global Glove, and he got his claws into me right away. And for some reason or another, I took to the gloves.

When you look at injuries when you're going through a plant, you got your ergonomics, you got your eye, and you got your hands. Those are your top three categories. And when we're going through plants, whether it be doing audits or surveys or helping our distributors out, we're actually helping people, we're making a difference in the industry. And that's why I've taken to it, to [crosstalk 00:07:15] so much, it's very interesting subject, you're adding science into everyday life.

Dave:

Okay. So when you talk about wins that you feel like you've had, where do you think that you've maybe changed stuff? Or do you have some instances where you feel like technologies that you offer really changed the game ...

Mike:

Absolutely.

Dave:

... in situations that maybe there wasn't an answer before? Because I mean we all know when we're ... I think people often forget is when we wear personal protective equipment, we've identified there's a goddamn hazard here and we're gonna hurt somebody if we don't put armor per se on them.

Mike:

Absolutely there is. You think about, let's say you got five stitches or so on your hand, something like that, or you get a recordable, or you go into a plant that's got 15 recordables throughout the course of the year, and they want to limit it down to ten or five is a success for them.

When we can go in it, we can eliminate it to 100 percent, zero recordables. We're saving that company hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, over the course of their workman's comp, time lost, and then just being able to help these people. They're being more productive, they're making a better product, they're not getting lost time.

Dave:

What's probably ... What do you count as your biggest success story? Like if you look back and you say ... You don't have to mention customer names or anything, but maybe, "This was happening, and we solved it by, you know ..."

Mike:

Yeah, we were actually in a metal stamping facility dealing with a lot of raw materials, very high oil, very heavy oil. And these guys were using basically your cottons and your jersey styles of gloves. They haven't seen the newer technology that was out there by some of the other competition.

We went in there, showed them some new stuff, and instantly we had feedback from their employees, made their employees happier. The morale for the employees was higher, the lost time was gone. It feels good when you can actually go in, make a difference ...

Dave:

But I think, I liked where you went with that is morale, 'cause I think sometimes we don't get that these are personal items, so despite the fact that one item may be a little bit cheaper and do a similar thing, sometimes just nicing it up a little bit can change that whole, the mental side of how, number one, the employee perceives their job, but how they perceive safety.

Mike:

Absolutely. A lot of times, I did what you guys did working with the distributors and what not, I was a distributor for many years. You go in and it's a me too business, it's, "I can get you this, I can get you this price on this."

Being with the manufacturers that I am now, it's not that. It's going in showing new product. For one, it's getting me knowledge on how this can help somebody else out [inaudible 00:10:06] the industry, but then it's, okay, we're doing the right thing as Global Glove, we're making the right product to help these people out. And that's, I mean, that's where I really get my rise out of it.

Dave:

Right on, right on. From a manufacturer's side, you get to go in and see a lot of processes and where people are doing stuff, whether it's manufacturing, construction, whatever. What is the worst thing ...

Mike:

Hog slaughter is the worst I've ever seen.

Dave:

Okay. Take me, not a real deep dive, but share that with me, what are we talking here? ... Because this is Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales, so the fact that we're in hog slaughter, I mean you've got my attention here.

Mike:

Hog and ... Any type of slaughter is a nasty application. Meat cutting, that type of stuff. Think about the blades you're using, how cold it is, how wet it is, all they used to use was chain mesh gloves, that was the main thing.

Well, with the technology now ... And it didn't fit everybody's hand the same way. You go in there and the scent hits you. You get all ... And if you're not used to that, if you haven't dealt with it before, it's very similar to smelling death.

So you go in there, and now with some of the newer gloves that are FDA approved, especially on the cut resistance side, these guys aren't wearing these huge chain mesh, chains on massacre style gloves. They can actually work and do their job the way they're supposed to. That's probably the worst application I've been in.

Some of the coolest stuff I've been in is in automotive. You go into a plant that's making a car, and how they can turn on a car in about two hours is pretty damn impressive, and how everybody in there has a different set of jobs, but they're doing the same thing over and over repeatedly. And they need the right PB to do that.

There's a lot of cool stuff out there, I've been to D&R facilities where they're gutting trouts and everything, to spawn them and this and that, and they're dropping these huge tanks into rivers that go into Lake Superior. There's just a lot of ... It's really cool being able to be on the manufacturer side of it because it's, again, we're going in, we're trying to solve problems for them. We're giving them a solution instead of ...

Dave:

And I don't think a lot of end users get that you as a tool are there and available, they don't have to be on a desert island by themselves. And all they need to do is pick the phone up and lean on you guys.

Mike:

Yep, and a lot of times when you're with your manufacturers and what not, they're not gonna be as hard pressed when a glove or a safety manufacturer comes in there, 'cause again, we're coming in there to show them new product, offer them solutions to save them the cost down, and to help their employees, get them in the right product.

So they're not as threatened by someone like me coming in there, where I'm not asking them for appeal, I wanna solve a problem for them, and I've got something new, I wanna see if it works for my own interest. And that's ...

Dave:

So that's a good lead in to one of my final questions here is, you mentioned that you all got some bad ass stuff coming out ...

Mike:

We do.

Dave:

So what are you most ... Pick an item that you're most excited about, and just give us where that space age shit goes to.

Mike:

We have a new item, well, we have a couple new items coming out, but the one that I'm most excited about is we've got a couple of new A9 cut resistant level gloves ...

Dave:

A9?

Mike:

A9s with puncture.

Dave:

Wow, okay.

Mike:

With puncture. These are unbelievable [crosstalk 00:13:35] ...

Dave:

There's not a lot, now needle sticks?

Mike:

Needle stick, needle stick.

Dave:

'cause there's not a lot of stuff in that realm of things.

Mike:

There isn't, there isn't. And actually all of our gloves are in production right now, and they are being tested. So hopefully by NSC in September, we'll be launching these gloves.

Dave:

And that needle stick test is not the traditional EM388 test, it's a whole different ... 'Cause I think a lot of times is people see that puncture score on just your regular EM388, the four number score. And I think they see puncture and they start thinking needle [crosstalk 00:14:14] ...

Mike:

They automatically assume needle.

Dave:

Yeah.

Mike:

And that's ...

Dave:

And it's a misconception.

Mike:

Absolutely it is. I mean you think about most cuts, most cuts are gonna start with a puncture. I would say 80 to 90 percent of them do. It starts with that little prick or that hole, and then as your hand slides across it, whether it be in oil application or [inaudible 00:14:30], that's really when the cuts happen.

This is gonna be great for police forces, especially with the opiod epidemic and the Fetanyl, and all the needles that are going on. Your recycling companies, I would say your average recycling company, they're getting three to four needle sticks a year with an employee. That's scary ass shit, they're getting AIDS testing, they're getting TB testing from this stuff, it's very scary.

And by these guys having these new product where they're gonna be able to go in, do the sorting, have the confidence that they're not gonna ... That these gloves aren't gonna stick through, it's pretty exciting product, and we're really looking forward to it.

Dave:

I can't wait to see it. So we're gonna wrap this up, and what we're gonna do is we're gonna check off here from Bismarck, North Dakota at the North Dakota Safety Council show. Mike Hemming, thanks for taking the chance to chat with me.

Mike:

Thanks for having me, Dave, appreciate it.

Dave:

Appreciate it, take care.

Mike:

Alright.

Fred:

So let's talk a little bit further, after talking to the glove manufacturer, what we kinda do when we choose a cut glove, what we should consider.

So the number one bullet point I have is what's being held, or what's being worked on.

Dave:

Yeah, because all edges are not created the same. So the thing to remember is you can have something that is kinda, kinda dull per se, when you would feel it, you would not go, "That is sharp." But if you compound that with a lot of force, that can create a cut, and it can actually create a real deep nasty gash, not a clean cut, just a gaping, you know, gaping scratch wound or whatever you might wanna call it, versus something that is super, super sharp, you don't have to have a lot of force.

So there's a lot of the different anatomy things that go into is, what is the edge, and what is the force on the edge? So even when we start talking about really getting down and deep and looking into the force on an edge, let's say that we're just handling sheet metal. Well, let's handle sheet metal, one, which is dry, or doesn't have any oils or anything over it. The second one is just buttered up, it's got cutting fluids or whatever on it.

And let's just play along with me here, let's say we have the wrong coating on the glove and we're trying to grab a hold of something, a coating that's not matched to that cutting material. So let's say we have some level of a nitrile, just a [inaudible 00:17:17] nitrile, and something like that, it may not get as good a grip as that same nitrile glove on a dry sample.

So let's say that we're working with that piece of sheet metal and we have to hold on to it, well, the dry one, to do whatever we're doing, we're probably not gripping it as hard. Well, the one that's got a little bit of liquid or cutting fluids on it, to make sure that we're holding on that, we're holding it tighter. So those [crosstalk 00:17:49] ...

Fred:

That's where the force is created, is from how tight you're gripping it.

Dave:

Yeah, well, and it may be the weight of the item, maybe it could be the weight of the item or how much pressure in our hands when we're holding on to it.

But in this example, we have the same edge on the same material with the same glove, and the only thing that's different is one's got some fluid on it, the other one doesn't have fluid.

And all of a sudden we move that and, based on the cut resistance, we thought we had the right glove, and now we have a laceration 'cause we didn't take into account that this lube or whatever was going to be on the material, and we didn't have necessarily the right coating.

Fred:

Well, and that could probably be also the dexterity that your hands ... 'Cause sometimes a glove that you have better feel with, you don't have to grip as tight, whereas you have a bulkier glove on ...

Dave:

And you're just ...

Fred:

... you have to death grip to get through the material of the glove to get to whatever item you're grabbing onto, which creates [crosstalk 00:18:46] ...

Dave:

Yeah, and so when it goes to cut, obviously you're ... I mean, basically sharp and force are the two things that cause a cut, sharp, how to say, just force, blunt object is a puncture. So as things get smaller, then that's where a puncture is. But cut is a sharp edge and force over ... A cutting force, pulling that old Retracto knife across the carpet.

Fred:

So what's being held on or worked on, kinda what is the pressure and the sharpness of the item that we're working on? Then I would say ...

Dave:

Is it glass? Is it ... There's a lot of different things out there. And again, what environment are we working on it with, meaning ...

Fred:

So a cut is mostly gonna be side to side, like your hand runs across something, or an item runs across your hand. But something might actually poke through, and so that's kinda tested differently.

Dave:

Yes it is, so [crosstalk 00:19:42]...

Fred:

So a glove that could be high in cut might be low in puncture.

Dave:

Correct. And when you start talking puncture resistance, there's different tests. So some people got it in their head that puncture resistant is like needle stick. They're not equal.

So when you look at the puncture resistant test, it's actually a pretty big head, meaning when you look at the size of this thing, and they take material over the top of it, and then they pull down on it, and the pounds of force that it takes to puncture that is kinda what they're going after, versus a needle stick is a very, a gage needle that you would ... Say somebody's freebasing their heroin or whatever, and they're poking their arm, that's a real small needle. It doesn't take as much force to get through a material, especially a woven material, woven or knit.

So when we talk about those two, there's two different things, meaning cut is not equal to puncture, and all puncture is not equal.

Fred:

And you kinda toss abrasion into the mix as well.

Dave:

Abrasion, yes, well, abrasion gets into it also because abrasion gets into that whole tensile strength thing that ... We were kinda chatting about something that we were looking at earlier, which is there's some arguments in there that the tensile strength actually drives part of the cut resistance of a glove also.

Fred:

So if you looked at it, it would kinda be two pieces of material are woven together, and each of those pieces of material are of a certain cut resistance. But how easy is it to get in between those two pieces of material, is that basis of [crosstalk 00:21:26] ...

Dave:

That's gonna puncture.

Fred:

Yeah. So that's kinda the basis of what we're talking about.

The third kinda factor was, what are you protecting yourself from? So will you be working with extreme heat or cold? Do you need insulation from shock, contact with electric?

Dave:

Maybe you're dipping your hands in chemical.

Fred:

Chemicals, oil or grease, or something that's toxic.

Dave:

Yeah, so the classic example is people will go out there, and we've all seen these salt and pepper Dyneema, so the gloves that are ... They may be a cut glove that's all white, or it might be white and black kinda speckled throughout it.

Well, those became very comfortable 'cause all your gen one cut resistant gloves were Kevlar, so that was just a fiber created by DuPont that everybody just knew what it was.

Well, they didn't keep up with the time, and basically materials came out, so your high density polyethylenes feel better against the skin. So when you talk about high density polyethylene, it's a single strand of yarn versus your Aramid fibers, or your Kevlars, your Twarons, all those guys are basically a lot of little bitty fibers. So they don't feel as good, they kinda almost have an itchy feel against the skin, or they're not as comfortable, and they don't launder as well.

And their abrasion scores as not as well. So anybody that's ever seen a Kevlar glove over time, it looks like it grows fuzz. And that's basically it abrading over time.

So again, going back to the different environments that you're around, let's say I'm in a foundry and I'm handling hot, sharp stuff where all of a sudden I need a cut resistant glove. So Mike comes in there and goes, "Well, here is a cut resistant glove." Well, we've created a problem because high density polyethylene, HDPE, HPPE, there's all kinds of different things that they call it, Dyneema, Chyneema, whatever it is, it's poly. So when you apply heat to it ...

Fred:

It [crosstalk 00:23:35].

Dave:

... it will melt. It becomes gummy, don't quote me on this, 170 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit, which, yeah, we don't pick that up with our regular hands, but in a work environment, that's not really, that's not hot, hot.

So somewhere where, again, where we could be around a foundry, we could be somebody welding something, we could be getting weld spatter on our hands, whatever that is, is all of a sudden, yeah, we have the cut resistance we need, but it's a material that's gonna melt.

So that's not a good situation, so you kinda need to know what's going on around you because maybe you do have a chemical that all of a sudden, yeah, you need a cut resistant glove. But all of a sudden you're sticking your hands in methyl ethyl ketone, and it's a real ... It's probably a good idea not to submerge your hands in the MEK and let it sit there. When you have that cut, well, it's 2018, there are gloves out there that are chemical resistant with cut liners.

Fred:

That's what I'm saying, every single, I don't know, at least twice a year they come out with something different that's even better, it's tighter fitting on your hand, it resists more chemicals than the previous version of it did.

Dave:

[crosstalk 00:24:59] degradation is longer, maybe they figured out wear points. They'll usually come out with gen one of a glove and then gen two will have a reinforced thumb crotch because they figured out that's where the glove blows out the most. Yeah, every day they're kinda putting more engineering and stuff.

Fred:

Yeah, so then number four, how long is the item that you're working on being held? So do you need a glove that offers some sort of padding? Or is ergonomics an issue [crosstalk 00:25:30]?

Dave:

Yep, absolutely. And maybe, usually what you'll find is once you start getting cuts ruled out of your accident log, meaning all of a sudden you had hand lacerations and over time you put people into cut resistant gloves, and all of a sudden you're like, "People are still having hand injuries."

A lot of times that's gonna be contusions, so maybe not only a cut resistant glove, but you may need some TPR back of the hand metacarpal type coverage, because that'll be the next thing that you kinda figure out, "Well, we got most of it, but we're still having some incidents."

Well, we just take that glove and we throw some little kid's plastic Lincoln log looking things on the back of the hand, and all of a sudden, "Wow, we fixed that too."

Fred:

Well, it's kind of, there's so many different hybrids that are out there. So maybe you're a mechanic and you're dealing with oily parts, so you need something slip resistant. But you're dealing with sharp parts, you need something cut resistant. You can wack your hand as you're working on the back of the hand and you break knuckles, and break the bones on the back of your hand, so you need something with back of the hand protection.

There's somebody that's probably come up with a glove that will be everything you need. You might have to pay for it, it's probably not gonna be cheap, but you always say, "Solutions cost money," right?

Dave:

Well, the whole thing is either buy a solution or hurt somebody. And any accident you see, I mean when you look at how much personal protective equipment you can buy for it, it's crazy.

And I always refer back to, and you probably get sick of me saying this, but always refer back to National Safety Council did a study, and it was in multiple different areas or multiple, how to say, multiple industries over a long period of time, and basically they looked at money put into training protective personal equipment engineering, and basically what they figured out was, over time, for every dollar that somebody spent on there, there was a two dollar and forty cent return.

So when you're spending money on safety, if you're thinking about it the right way, you're investing for the future, 'cause you're gonna get that return.

Fred:

Yeah. Alright, anything else you wanna add onto that topic?

Dave:

Probably the biggest thing to realize is that there's been that change in the standard, and some people haven't really gone out there and looked at what they're buying, they just kept on buying what they were buying before, and it just got re-labeled.

Well, the problem that happened was, it used to be a one through a five, now we have an A1 through an A9. And so something that was in the low level, it didn't really matter. So a one was the same, a two is pretty much the same, but when we get into three, four, five, well, now that's now three, four, five, six, seven. So there's some more numbers, to where at one point in time when you would talk about a four, you could have a four that was twice as cut resistant as the other four. And now, all that stuff that's in the middle is split out into more classifications.

And obviously as you go from ... It's just like anything, more costs more. So maybe you need more, maybe you need less, that's for people to figure out kinda themselves.

Fred:

And there's a lot of stuff that was on the market that used to be a four on a scale of one to five, so you'd be like, "Oh, that's on the higher end of protection." And now it's an A4 on a scale of one ...

Dave:

To nine.

Fred:

... to A9. Yeah, and it's the same thing. So now you're like, "Well, I'm in the lower half of being protective," instead of almost as protective as you can possibly get.

Dave:

Yeah, and again, it's a lab test, meaning there's no practical, how to say ... When you look at how gloves are tested, they're tested in a lab with a specific weight, with a specific type of edge. And every edge, like we were talking about earlier, is it glass? Is it sheet metal? Is it ... It can be metals with just big burrs, and different gloves are gonna perform at different levels given what those edges are.

Fred:

Yeah. I took this little couple sentences from one of our blog posts 'cause I thought it did a pretty good job. It says, "One of the most dangerous things is to use PPE that doesn't protect, it offers a false sense of security. Whether your hand protection is too bulky, too restrictive, or they simply don't offer the right hazard protection, you're putting your hands and your livelihood at risk."

So I think that pretty much covers it. Sometimes you can be like, "I have on a glove, and now I'm Superman," like, "Oh, I'm good to touch that because I'm wearing gloves." Whether it's your Thinsulate mittens that you got at home, you're like, "I can grab that hot piece of metal 'cause I'm wearing a glove."

Dave:

Well, I was just at a facility the other day, and they were grabbing parts that basically they kinda super heat them, and they were grabbing with what they were calling a heat resistant glove.

And so I asked them to show it to me, and then when I got kinda looking at it, it was a 40 gram Thinsulate glove with just a leather outer. So it gave them the security, and it probably did keep it from getting hot quick to the touch, but how to say, that's not what that glove's designed to do.

What it maybe ... And that's where I think a lot of times I'll say something's probably better than nothing, but it is 2018 and we do have safety professionals all over the country, and so if it's not us that helps somebody, find somebody that knows what they're talking about, and then get them to help you evaluate what you're doing, where you're doing it, and what you're touching, and find the right stuff.

Fred:

Yeah, and then that does become, for just somebody that starts on the job that day, that's a false sense of security for it, especially when you call it your heat resistant glove. They're [crosstalk 00:32:04] touching something real hot.

Dave:

Like you say, they think that they're Superman, "Well, hell, it's heat resistant, that means it resists any heat that I touch, so I'm gonna stick my hand in the furnace and grab that out there, cause ..."

Fred:

"And I'm gonna take these home and I'm gonna be barbecuing hot dogs, and I'm gonna drop something in the fire and I'll reach in my hand in there and I'll pull it out, 'cause it's heat resistant."

Dave:

I do have gloves that I do that with, but they're different gloves.

Fred:

You got the big aluminum foil Tin Man looking gloves that you reach into the fire with?

Dave:

Well, I've got a real heavy loop-out Kevlar terry. So they're thick and big, but you can literally reach into the, and grab a burning log and reposition it and be okay for a ten second touch. But that's what that glove's designed to do.

Fred:

Yep. But then there's also, you probably get your brother over there putting on those gloves and be like, "Let's see how long I can hold my hand in the fire until I start to feel pain."

Dave:

Well, that's probably, yeah, a different conversation.

Fred:

So anyways, let's comb through the email box this week, ask Dave a couple questions. If you guys have a question, please send them to fred@quadcitysafety.com, reach out to us on any of the social media platforms, and we will put them in the show, and read them back. We'd love to hear from you.

Number one, "I'm working in the area where arc flash is possible, are there items besides my clothing that may need to be arc flash or FR rated?"

Dave:

It's a multi step thing there. So when we talk about it, there's some nuances there. And so when we talk about clothing, the first thing to do is making sure that our clothing is a system.

So a lot of people sit there and go, and I see this all the time, they go, "Well, we throw on our coverall, and then we ..." They're getting into an HRC 2 situation where they, balaclava, they put their face mask on, and they got the hard hat, and they skip a couple steps.

First step is they didn't take that Under Armour shirt that they wore to work off before they put on the arc wear. So more of where I see it is people making mistakes and doing what they're doing. So they're making a mistake there of not treating the PP that they're putting on as a system.

There is a need for hearing protection. And while I don't think I've really ever read of hearing protection catching fire, there are some plugs would self-extinguish faster than other ones, like if you take the old traditional EAR classic, those will self-extinguish a lot faster than a standard foam. So that is a thing.

Another thing to take into account ...

Fred:

With hearing protection though, isn't a lot of it that blast, an arc blast that's [crosstalk 00:35:08] loud?

Dave:

Yeah. It's super, super loud. But a lot of people don't necessarily take that into account and put the hearing protection in, one. But I guess I'm countering that with, you can have hearing protection that, if it ignited, because when we're talking about that arc flash, it's ... Just google arc flash and watch about three of four of these, and it's like holy shit, I mean, it is cataclysmic, I mean, shit is blowing up big.

Fred:

Yeah, when you see those videos of a guy completely on fire running through someone's town.

Dave:

Yeah, I mean, that's what ...

Fred:

That's what it looks like.

Dave:

That's what we're talking about.

Fred:

Right.

Dave:

So when we talk about FR rated stuff, as long as we've got our protective footwear, we're wearing our, depending on what kind of gloves you require, if there's a shock, obviously you're gonna have your rubbers, but you should have your leather outers over the top of that. So it's, again, making sure that you're putting that system together.

But things to also think about is, okay, when that blast goes off, there is a significant shock that comes that is going to push you. So do I have a trip hazard behind me? Am I standing at the top of ...? Let's say that there's two foot behind me, and then a 30 foot drop. We should really evaluate the work surface, because if that goes, there is kind of a concussion type shock that could potentially force you off of something.

So there's a lot of things to take in account when you're talking about arc flash, outside of just the traditional PP set that you would have.

For instance if we're in a high shock area, making sure that your boundaries are marked. So all of a sudden old Rufus is running around behind you, he's your helper or whatever, and you have that arc flash and he's in the zone, he's in the arc zone, and he doesn't have anything on.

So evaluating who, what, when, where, and why, how, all those good words.

Fred:

I think a couple things that you sort of mentioned, but I want you to go in a little bit further 'cause I know there's some confusion that's out there. Hard hat, so that's one thing that you said, and hard hats don't have an arc rating on [crosstalk 00:37:29] ...

Dave:

No, hard hats don't have an arc rating, but when you dig into NFPA70E, basically the requirement is for a Series E cap or hat. So a Series E, I would say a majority of caps out there hit that, more than 50 ...

Fred:

Those are not vented.

Dave:

Long as they're not vented, but you do have situations where you could need, there may be a Series G or a Series C. So C is conductive, G is just limited to 2200 volts, and then a Series E is 10,000 I think. So there's not really a temperature rating, but there is a rating for electrical shock.

Fred:

Okay. And then you mentioned a blast that could shoot you two feet, and maybe there's a fall. So I know in some applications you would be wearing fall protection, so that's another category, if some of this fall protection is arc rated.

Dave:

Yes, there is. So from body wear to connecting devises, yes, there are devices out there that are meant to kind of withstand, again, that cataclysmic fire that goes on, because obviously if you have that cataclysmic event, it's a twofold thing. I have my fall protection on and it happens, maybe I don't fall. Well, if you have it on and you have an arc flash, it's going to ignite that poly harness, and it would suck to go through life with the imprint of a harness on your body because you had it on there and there was an arc flash, and ...

Fred:

It stayed on fire.

Dave:

... it stayed on fire and burned into you. It'd be pretty wild kinda looking, you'd have your chest strap going across. And every time you went to the pool, you'd have to explain it, and it'd be kinda, it's be really embarrassing for your kids.

Fred:

Yeah, kinda ... I don't what movie [inaudible 00:39:28] but you've seen it like ten times in different movies where somebody goes to the beach and they fall asleep with no shirt on, and some kid comes up with sunscreen and writes something on them.

Dave:

Yeah, puts the smiley face on them.

Fred:

... Says "asshole" on their chest or something like that. Similar, but permanent.

Question number two, "I was told that I need to be in a class three vest, and I'm not exactly sure what that does for you over your standard vest."

Dave:

Okay. So as they kinda looked at it over time, class two became very general looking to people, meaning if you look at a class two vest on a person, about dusk or dark, and you look at a barrel, they look similar.

So create visibility but to also make you not look like a barrel is all of a sudden when you add sleeves and more reflective tape where you can see arms flailing around or whatever. It gains conspicuity, also adding pants, adding Series E devices, which are caps, so there are certain combinations where you can take twos to threes by complementing ...

Fred:

[crosstalk 00:40:43] a vest usually and just gaiters around your ankles.

Dave:

Yeah, but again, that's kinda making you look less like a barrel than just having just a regular class two vest.

Fred:

Right. But for a company that maybe doesn't wanna have their class two vest, and their class three vest, that's like an easy add-on is just to put on leg gaiters or something like that and be compliant with that.

Dave:

Instead of trying to take it ... 'Cause otherwise there's a little bit of a cost jump to take everybody into a class three, 'cause there's, you gotta have more of the background material, you have to have more of the tape, you have to have more of the tape in certain areas. So yeah, it drives the price up.

Fred:

And so mostly that's gonna be like DOT certifications, or you think just anyone that works roadside should technically be in class three?

Dave:

Well, theoretically it doesn't have to be roadside. High visibility vest in construction zones where we have, let's say we're working with cranes or bulldozers or any earth moving devices, you still wanna have high visibility clothing on so that people are aware that, when people are around them.

So it's not just the guy that's doing roadways or working on the bridge, or working on a roadway. DOT has standards that require it, that's kinda where you get into your class twos and threes, but realistically, if you're in a work environment where you have any kind of equipment that people are driving around and moving, you should use high vis vests to make people more visible, more conspicuous to the work environment.

Fred:

Okay. Or [inaudible 00:42:41] visitors, sometimes that's a major thing is that when you have a visitor in your facility, you put them in a high vis vest so that way everyone can see this person in this vest that's not doing what we're doing, and we need to look out for them because they haven't been trained in our policies and procedures and what not.

Dave:

Absolutely.

Fred:

Third one was a Fred question because they've asked it to you before and ...

Dave:

Do I keep giving you the wrong answer?

Fred:

No, you keep giving me a good answer, but I think it would be helpful to do it. So do you have an opinion on IR sensors on gas detection monitors?

Dave:

Okay. And this is my position on it. So ...

Fred:

'Cause obviously every single manufacturer out there is making monitors that have an IR sensor.

Dave:

Correct.

Fred:

They're all making them.

Dave:

Correct. Well, most everybody is. And the main thing is, when you talk about battery life in a device, that's the main reason.

Because when you think about a traditional sensor, a catalytic bead sensor, basically it sucks a lot of the battery because it's pulling an environment and trying to make little mini explosions to where it goes, "Yep, there's a concentration of gas that can potentially combust or explode if it was produced with enough ..." When you talk about the flame triangle, so you gotta have enough oxygen, you have to have enough ... And then you have the ignition source.

So it's measuring that, and that's what sucks those batteries down is that traditional sensor. So when they went to that new infrared, they can get an idea, the little computer takes a look at it, what's coming across there, and it goes, "Yep, that looks right."

So that doesn't take as much energy, so the batteries last longer. So if it's a diffusion unit, those things can run for days and days. I've seen them run for weeks, where the traditional sensor, you couldn't make it to the end of the work day.

And you complement that with a pumped unit, you got a pumped unit that can go for a couple days. And you're only getting hours out of your traditional pumped unit with the catalytic bead sensors.

So that's kinda where it came forward, it said, "Yeah, we can see it." Well, my problem is, when you look at actually the fact that you could enter a situation, and it goes back into that false sense of security, so you're handing somebody a monitor and you're saying, "This will keep you from getting in an explosive environment."

And if you have somebody that can sign off and do that due diligence to say ... Because IR sensors, there are certain volatile organic compounds that it can't sense, that it doesn't know, it won't say, "Yes, this is a problem."

So there are situations out there where you could lull a false sense of security and be in an environment that is explosive. And the catalytic bead sensor would probably pick it up, where that IR sensor probably wouldn't, certain situations.

Is it all inclusive? No. But again, unless somebody is that intimate with the work area ... I'm not an industrial hygienist, nor have I done the industrial hygiene work at any of my customer sites. So if somebody's gonna ask me, "I need to measure LEL," unless they have somebody that has the knowledge base to answer that, it's hard for me to help somebody make that decision.

Fred:

To make that recommendation to them.

Dave:

Yep, because I don't wanna sit there and go, "No, it'll work for you," so that you have a good charge on the battery when you blow up, that was good.

Fred:

Yeah, you're dead, but you got 75 percent of your battery left. [crosstalk 00:46:54] ...

Dave:

We all run around worried about battery life on our phones and everything, but sometimes we might need to sacrifice a little of that battery life.

Fred:

So but you say that the main reason that the companies are doing it is for battery life, so that way they can say that instead of lasting seven hours, their unit lasts 80 hours.

Dave:

Yeah. That's a majority of what it is.

Fred:

Cost too? Are they less expensive, or not really?

Dave:

To be honest with you, I don't know the answer to that.

Fred:

Okay. I'm just trying to think, I don't think there's any of the higher end stuff that they have ...

Dave:

I haven't really seen anything that's shockingly cheaper or anything, so I would say that they're similar.

Fred:

Fair enough. Alright, so most of this episode we talked about gloves. So I wrote down a few famous gloves throughout history. So Michael Jackson, that's gotta be the most famous person that wore a glove, right?

Dave:

Yeah.

Fred:

I mean, kinda creepy that he had just the one glove on, I still don't understand what the reason ... Have you ever heard anything? Did anyone explain why he only wore one glove?

Dave:

Nothing that I can talk about, no. And it usually was very off color.

Fred:

A joke, but there has to be a legit reason that he wore one glove.

Dave:

I don't know.

Fred:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:48:11] batting glove. So how about the Juice, OJ?

Dave:

"If the glove does not fit, you must acquit."

Fred:

You must acquit.

Dave:

Johnny Cochran.

Fred:

Did you ever watch the thing they did on FX about that?

Dave:

Yeah ...

Fred:

It was like a show about ...

Dave:

I didn't see all of it. Did it win some awards or something?  [crosstalk 00:48:30] ...

Fred:

People vs. OJ Simpson. Yeah, it was really good, yeah. It's on Netflix, you should check it out.

Freddy Krueger, got him on the list, he had those bad ass gloves with the ...

Dave:

Razor blade [crosstalk 00:48:39] ...

Fred:

With the razor blades on it. You can do some destruction with those.

Dave:

One, two, Freddy's coming for you, three ... Yeah, [crosstalk 00:48:46] ...

Fred:

Better lock the door.

Dave:

That was spooky shit when I was a kid, man. I mean, you talk about, I watch it now and they're kinda, they're a little funny now. And I don't know whether it's just I've become more sick and demented or what, but I can remember that'd keep me up at night.

Fred:

Well, imagine you're growing up your whole life being named Fred. That's number one on this list of [crosstalk 00:49:09] Freddy Krueger ...

Dave:

Really?

Fred:

Yeah. My last name [inaudible 00:49:11] Radunzel, that takes precedent because Rapunzel ...

Dave:

Yeah, I can see that that [crosstalk 00:49:16] ...

Fred:

... let down your golden hair, Radunzel. That stuff is number one.

But number two, for sure Freddy Krueger, especially as a little kid. I was him for Halloween one year too, Freddy Krueger, I had the nails and I had the mask with the burnt up face, the sweater, the red and black sweater, I had it all.

Dave:

Did you have the hat?

Fred:

I had the had, yep, went over the bald scalp. I'm pretty sure it was a kit that was just put together for me, but that was number one. Did you have any of those? Anyone call you anything? Dave White, that's pretty vanilla.

Dave:

That is ...

Fred:

Might as well be John Smith.

Dave:

Yeah. I mean it's literally like, Dave. Not a lot.

Fred:

Maybe a Wendy's guy? You ever get ...

Dave:

No, that's Dave Thomas, wasn't it?

Fred:

Dave .. I'm trying to think of a Dave.

Dave:

No, no. I mean probably as close as I get is I get like a big Dave, I get something that refers to my size around my ...

Fred:

Larry the cable guy, yeah, Larry the cable guy [inaudible 00:50:11] ... That has nothing to do with your name, but, in an airport, right?

Dave:

Association, yeah.

Fred:

Next one I had on the list, Muhammad Ali, [inaudible 00:50:19] most famous person that laced on a pair of gloves [crosstalk 00:50:24] ...

Dave:

Yeah, "Fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee."

Fred:

Yep, I got Willie Mays on the list, that's gotta be the most famous baseball glove of all time, 112 gold gloves. So I got him.

And then Chef Boyardee, remember the little white glove with the smiley face on it? Wasn't it Chef Boyardee?

Dave:

No, it wasn't Chef Boyardee.

Fred:

Who was it? Hamburger helper?

Dave:

Hamburger helper.

Fred:

Maybe that's what I'm thinking of. I wrote down Chef Boyardee, but ...

Dave:

No, Chef Boyardee was the hat.

Fred:

Well, the glove had ... Didn't the glove have a hat on too?

Dave:

No, he was ...

Fred:

I just remember the red nose ...

Dave:

It was a little spooky hand that went kinda, "Hey, now we have chicken helper."

Fred:

Exactly, okay. I remember that guy.

Dave:

I think, maybe I'm wrong on that. But no, I think the glove ...

Fred:

I think you're right, it was helper. So he's a pretty famous glove though.

Dave:

Well, I mean, god damn, how much of that stuff did you get shoveled into your mouth as a kid?

Fred:

Even through college.

Dave:

... Be like, "Can we please not have anymore of the lasagna?"

Fred:

"I don't want the beef stroganoff anymore, it's gross." I was still eating that shit in college for sure. That's a good cheap ...

Dave:

Every now and then, I'll make it for the kids and they're like, "This is nasty."

Fred:

I bust one out and just load it up in salt.

Dave:

I'm like ... Yeah, it's got enough sodium to make you have a heart attack.

Fred:

Yep. Alright, that's all I got for today. Time to call it a day, your daughter has a volleyball game that you gotta get to. Who are they playing tonight? Who's [inaudible 00:51:50] got in volleyball tonight? Who are they playing?

Dave:

It's a league, so they're red, so I think they're playing yellow.

Fred:

Well, go red.

Dave:

Yeah, go red.

Fred:

Get it don't.

Dave:

Go red for women.

Fred:

Yep. So thank you guys for listening. If you had a good time and you want more fun, subscribe to the podcast, you'll never miss an episode.

Next week we'll be back, and we hope you'll be back too. Definitely wanna hear what you guys have to say on the topic discussed or anything else safety related.

Give us comments, questions, any of our social media platforms, reach out to us via email. Dave gets a fax number every once in a while, it's what, 563 ...

Dave:

445 ...

Fred:

445-2171?

Dave:

Yep, right on.

Fred:

Alright, hit us up via fax if you'd like, [inaudible 00:52:32] until next time.

Dave:

The first faxed question I get is a winner.

Fred:

Yeah, we'll send you some candy bacon ...

Dave:

Yeah, there you go.

Fred:

... for your fax question. Alright guys, see you next time.

Dave:

Take care.

Intro:

Thanks for listening in to Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales, brought to you by Quad City Safety.

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Fred:

Oh my god.