Safety Tales Podcast Season 2 Episode 12: Are you the ‘Come On, Man!’ of Safety? 

Intro Speaker:

David and Bacon's Safety Tales. The only industrial safety podcast that brings you common sense advice on job site safety, standards, regulations and industry best practices without putting you to sleep.

Fred:

Welcome to Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales. In the midst the season two so we're glad to have you back. Must be all the safety tips we've been giving, keeping everybody alive and well.

Dave:

Yeah, you got to feed everybody a little bit.

Fred:

So it's Fred and Dave here with Quad City Safety. Both on LinkedIn. I'm QCsafetyFred on Twitter. We have a Facebook page so definitely reach out to us. How do you feel. Today we have a very special episode. We're going to start getting into having some guests on the show so the first one we're going to do is Chris Dickey, he's with Process Marketing Group. They kind of handle Guardian Fall Protection, Bradley Eyewash, National Marker which is some signs, Streamlight lighting, flashlights and PIP.

Dave:

Yeah, we'll be getting into his story here after a while.

Fred:

First I was going to start off, before we do the interview, Dave, what do you kind of think as a safety supplier working with a rep group. How's that kind of advantageous to us?

Dave:

Kind of a rep group, their job is to kind of fill in some gaps and being the best in class distributor that we are we feel that we do a really good job but sometimes the manufacturers don't have kind of a forward facing sales group to handle maybe a little bit higher technical stuff as it relates to their products and how it relates to markets. So they're trained specifically on their products. So when you talk about a manufacturer's rep like we represent fall protection to our customers, they represent a specific brand of fall protection. So even though items may work very closely, so a harness is a harness but features and benefits that the consumers can enjoy on those items can be a little different so they add kind of that nuance to get a little bit deeper into the bells and whistles on specific products.

Fred:

Probably a lot of time samples too they're going to have 10 different options on a harness where we might have one.

Dave:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, in stock so they're able to, obviously they're given a whole plethora of samples for everybody to go into the ice cream shop and remember when I was a little kid the only reason that I ever wanted to go to Baskin Robbins is they have these little pink spoons they kind of just give you just enough to just get on your tongue and you just got a taste of it but you always really felt like you were getting away with something, kind of laugh at yourself when you got your ice cream cone and you, you probably got about an extra four grams ice cream from those little pink spoons.

Fred:

I think a lot of times that some of the smaller companies doesn't make sense for them to have an Iowa rep and an Illinois rep. So they might have a few people across the country so they need these rep groups that can manage multiple brands to be able to spend 10% on our product instead of having a full time person that does that.

Dave:

Does give the manufacturers a chance to give field representation all the way down to the end user but also complement our efforts, help us where we may have gaps.

Fred:

And so that's good for someone that works in the industry that might have an issue with their fall protection or with the, shoot, they want to see a couple flashlights and it's like who can really show me the differences between flashlights that I'm not going to get some guy from California to fly in to talk about flashlights for 20 minutes. But if you're working with maybe a rep group there might be an opportunity for that actually happen when they're in the area.

Dave:

Yeah, absolutely.

Fred:

All right, we'll get on to Dave's interview with Chris.

Dave:

Okay, I'm here this morning with Chris Dickey from Process Marketing Group, PMG. So Chris, tell me a little bit about what PMG is because I think a lot of people are kind of maybe they don't really understand what a manufacturer's rep. So kind of give me a breakdown on who you are in this industry.

Chris:

Hi Dave. Thanks, it's good to be here. Process Marketing Group, we are a manufacturer's rep agency dating back to 2000. So what we do, we do the consulting training and sales for a number of different companies.

Dave:

Like what brands do y'all represent?

Chris:

To name a few We have Guardian Fall Protection, we have Sqwincher so a rehydration product. We have a company called CleanSpace that does respiratory products. We have some ergonomic companies that we represent, flashlight lighting company that we represent as well. So a lot of variety kind of tailored to that manufacturing and construction companies.

Dave:

Cool. So if you look back why did you get into the safety industry? You've got a story about yourself that kind of gives you that passion for safety?

Chris:

Yeah. Not necessarily like a specific story but it's one of those things that safety's everywhere. I mean everybody’s talking about it, constantly evolving. So seeing new products come out there to help people save people's lives, do different things where they can go home with their families. Why would you not want to do something like that or be behind something like that. It's intriguing for me and that's one of those things that once I got into it and wanted to continue to pursue a career involving safety and safety related products and education.

Dave:

Tell me about some of the, you know, obviously like us you're out in the field a lot and you see people doing some stupid things and one of the sessions that we have on this is the dumb ass of the week. So, tell me about some epic fails that you've kind of seen out there in the field.

Chris:

Oh my gosh. Over the 12 years I've been involved with this I've seen everything from people stacking ladders on top of one another. I've seen people handling sharp knives without gloves. I've seen people using overhead cranes without a hard hats. You name it. I mean we've just seen a ton of stuff out there where people just do things.

Dave:

When you see people doing those things do you think it's ignorance or is there a specific reason that you think they end up doing it?

Chris:

There's a lot involved I think in that. A lot of times it comes back to a, they've got to get the job done, what resources do they have, maybe they don't have the resources but they have to get the job done so that's what we hear a lot when I ask them those types of questions.

Dave:

That's an epic truth is I think sometimes management pushes for safety but then drives behavior that drives unsafe practices.

Chris:

No doubt about that. It's an educational thing. We don't see a lot of the education, the proper training aspects involved with a lot of the companies. They get people that come and go and so when people show up things get slid under the rug and we see a lot of those dumb ass of the week no doubt about that candidates.

Dave:

There's unfortunately too many of them. I don't think we can go down the road too far without seeing one. Some of the lines that you mentioned that you have, what's the most exciting thing that you're representing right now from a product standpoint.

Chris:

From a product standpoint, we get new products from all of my lines, regular basis, quarterly, things of that nature but one hot product right now is just our new respirator that we came out with. It's a revolutionary product. Been selling overseas in Europe for 10 years. Just got released to the United States this past year. Very lightweight, durable. It's exciting. When you can bring something to the table that can help you ...

Dave:

What would you compare it to?

Chris:

In terms of?

Dave:

Other products that are, you said it's -

Chris:

It's kind of like a hybrid PAPR system which I think some people out in the field will understand what that means and what that does. It's an improvement on what has been around the market. Ease of use, comfort, things of that nature, durability to it. Anytime you can come with a new product that's going to help in the safety industry or help an employee do their job and much safer and protect them that's key and so it's fun to kind of run with something like that.

Dave:

Productivity wise, what are you seeing on end because I've heard some good things about that.

Chris:

Yeah, it's comfort. It's just a small device that's a half mask right now what we have through NIOSH, that's approved and so it's easy for the consumer to use that. It's allowing them to put it under a face shield for welding, things of that nature. So just ease of use, it's comforting, they're not sweating as much, they're not perspiring as much, they're not breathing as heavy when they use this product so productivity is actually increasing based off of the use of this product.

Dave:

Cool. Well, I'm just going to wrap this up, this little corner that we're doing here where we're going to kind of get to know some people that are in and around the industry and good night.

Fred:

All right. Well that was a good interview with Chris there.

Dave:

I'll tell you. A little bit bald little guy.

Fred:

So let's get on to our dumb ass of the week this week.

So I picked, Chris talked a little bit about ladders that one of their companies that they deal with in regards to ladders so I came up with her a guy named Marshall. Marshall is a painting contractor. Well I Fred Radunzel went in with this painting contractor, the safety person of this painting contractor and what they were doing was they were coating some sort of pipe that they were welding on top of so it was a weld and they were coating over the top of this pipe. And so, at the time they were have an issues with some sort of a chemical was coming off and getting in their hair and in their faces so they were looking for something, a face shield in, maybe they were doing some grinding on there too but a face shield, a combination with something that would keep whatever this chemical was out of their hair.

Well anyways, that's in consequential because what they wanted to show me was how they were doing this and so the guy went over and grabbed a milk crate, put the milk crate on the ground and then grabbed a paint bucket and put the paint bucket on top of the milk crate and then climbed up on there and then was doing his, doing the job. There was a ladder not 10 feet from where he was standing but the paint can and milk crate was directly next to him. And so of course he starts stepping up on top of this thing and the safety director, that's right, you're watching him do this it's like, hey, what the fuck are you doing. There's a ladder right there. And so, I think that's a lot of times what just happens is someone's second nature.

Dave:

Well, I mean it's part of the human condition is the human condition is we're problem solvers. We wake up every morning and our thing is we naturally want to make it through a day so we have a fire fight mechanism, we have the fact that we get hungry and part of it is when we see of obstacle our brain immediately tries to figure out the easiest way around that. And unfortunately the safest way is not always the easiest or quickest method to do that but that's where we, you know as well as I do, I mean classic example you bring up there is literally, it was probably just out [inaudible 00:11:57] that he had to go get a ladder versus wait a second, I only got to get up here for a second buzz this [inaudible 00:12:04].

Fred:

I'm not actually going to be doing this job; I'm just going to show this guy who's a safety person with another safety person how to do this job.

Dave:

How to unsafely do this job and get my ass chewed out. That's not the problem that he's trying to solve at that point in time, he's just quickly going, no, that milk crate wasn't quite enough; I'm going to need another two feet, perfect.

Fred:

This is perfect. So he goes and he's standing right on top of it. So really all he needed to do was to take a breath, think about how can I do this safely, how can I do this job safely because I don't know, maybe that's how they were doing it. When the safety guy is not around, he could actually be doing that job with the milk crate.

Dave:

You hit the nail on the head is most people if before they would start any task if they would back up and take literally five seconds because his response to stacking stuff up was just literally the brain quickly solving it by itself versus taking a little bit more of a, how to say, looking at it from a holistic approach of how should I do this safely and he would have gone bucket. No, I really shouldn't do that because either one, I don't want the safety director chewing my ass ...

Fred:

Right, I don't want to get fired.

Dave:

Or the fact that he goes, that's not a good idea, we've got a ladder, oh, there's the ladder. But backing off and realistically we talk about this all the time and we're going to continue to talk about this on episode after episode is constantly evaluating your work place because for instance we're talking about a construction site so everything's not static, it's a dynamic work environment. Tomorrow when he goes there, maybe that bucket and milk crate aren't there. Maybe the ladder is sitting square dead in front of him and he makes the decision that day. Again, the next day it's going to change, maybe both of them are gone. So what the hell's going to try to stand on the next day?

Well, if we again stood there and evaluate what we're going to do before we do it and sometimes it's just a quick site plan through the day. So if we're going to, basically it sounds like they were probably cleaning off some welds or whatever before they, they probably had to clean up before they actually put some coating so it'd adhere. Before they were doing that, they really should have walked around and gone, man, we're going to have to get up there and do that today. So maybe we need some, maybe we need to erect scaffolding. Maybe we need a ladder. What are we going to have in our hands? Are we going to be able to maintain points of contact to be working off a ladder?

Still, depending on what you're doing, he could have still been in compliant or not compliant with the ladder there depending on what he's doing. Again, a ladder requiring three points of contact.

Fred:

I think something else we've harped on too kind of as we've done this show is his buddies. Maybe in this circumstance, the safety guy is right there so they're like, what is he doing but in a lot of cases.

Dave:

Yeah, I'll imagine it was like roaches. When you flip on the light I bet everybody was like, oh man, Marcus, what was our dumbass, what was his name?

Fred:

Marshall.

Dave:

Marshall. I imagine everybody went oh my god, Marshall, and then right about the time he started to take that first step on the bucket everybody just dove everywhere out of site.

Fred:

Yeah, I want no part of this. But yeah, that's probably something that he would have done that in front of his other five buddies that maybe they did it yesterday.

Dave:

Maybe we should start. That whole, come on ma. The come on man of safety, I like that. So maybe somebody this week just do it and then let us know on Fred's Twitter handle that you let somebody know, come oh man, as they were making an unsafe-

Fred:

Right, stupid thing. All right, well let's move on. I kind of wanted to go over the OSHA's top 10 for 2017. I know we're already pretty deep into quarter one here in 2018 but take a look back and see kind of what the top cited things were for OSHA this year.

Dave:

After doing this for a long time, when you look at the list.

Fred:

Seven or eight, about everything.

Dave:

There's seven or eight that are constantly about in the same place that they always had, which means guess what?

Fred:

Still work to do.

Dave:

Still a lot of work to do or we just need to pay a little attention because probably somebody has done something we just we're not fallen into where we need to be.

Fred:

Well, the first thing you mentioned to me before this episode started is a lot of them are, some of them are cited under 1926 and some of them are cited under 1910 so you kind of gave me a brief what is the difference between the two.

Dave:

Obviously when OSHA cites the Code of Federal Register CFR, you'll have 1910, which is the big ass book of how you do everything in general industry or at least the rules that if you do this this is what you kind of got to have and obviously from there that may refer to anti-standard or some other standard for more clarification or what the right products. 1910 is kind of the rule book for general industry, 1926 would get into your construction and there's other standards out there.

Fred:

Number one is fall protection which is probably number one or number two every single year.

Dave:

Just about. And it's still one of the leading causes of death. So again, when we look at safety, we do have the fact that unfortunately if somebody is getting cited, we've made a lot of bad decisions and the problem is if we've been making a lot of bad decisions we've probably killed a lot of people or hurt a lot of people in the process. So fall protection still produces I believe just the largest amount of deaths in the United States in a work environment.

Fred:

Well this one says doesn't have deaths but it's got total violations. We're 6887.

Dave:

Yeah, but violation means that somebody reported or a compliance officer walked onto a site and found something that was wrong and then basically cited it. Could be a post-accident site but still there was a lot of bad things going on meaning it wasn't just, how to say, those citations weren't just where accidents happen it's where they saw bad habits going on. Over time some people argue whether it's right or wrong but there's kind of a thought process that says when you look at a death, it's so many near misses and you can kind of do a statistical correlation that says, we almost killed somebody 10 times and finally that one time we killed him. So as those trigger events come up then you're going to get closer. So managing that behavior.

Fred:

In 2016 it was at 6906 so we knocked that off by quick math here 19 violations over the course of ...

Dave:

Yeah, 19 violations then ...

Fred:

Over the course of six, almost seven thousand.

Dave:

But also I don't think we had as many compliance officers running around policing/

Fred:

Gotcha. What was number one last year as well. Number two, which is also number two last year is hazard communications. So that's probably having, looks like having a written hazard communication program, it's keeping your copies of your STS sheets on you.

Dave:

I think that one probably got its credit or its street cred from being the bad boy from GHS. And GHS is fairly new so people are still trying to figure some of that stuff out.

Fred:

Listen, the number one thing cited was employees, employers shall develop, implement and maintain at each workplace a written hazard communication program. So that was roughly, that was about a third of the citations were for that and I think you get down to safety data sheets really and like number three and number four where it's only four or five hundred each one of those. That was number two last year and looks like 4600 this year 5600 last year. So, must be doing better or like you said, less people out there slapping wrist.

Number three, scaffolding which was also number three last year.

Dave:

Scaffolding is a tough one because there's not a lot of, how to say, I don't think that people spend enough time getting people competent on scaffolding so that as you're erecting them making sure they're erected right, making sure that if you have to use fall protection with them that that's been done correctly. That if they're built over certain heights making sure that they are tied off to whatever structure they're built around. Maybe it's mixing matches and types of scaffolding. There's other so many ways from Sunday to get that one wrong it's not even funny. That one's a tough one and I think it's just because the world needs a whole lot more scaffold training. I know I need more scaffold training.

Fred:

I know I hear scaffolding and I run the other direction. I'm almost like, I don't even really want to talk about that.

Dave:

There's a lot to know.

Fred:

So the number one citation, each employee on a scaffold more than 10 feet above a lower level shall be protected from falling to that lower level. So I know that fall protection and scaffolding, that's like a big nobody knows what the hell they're doing.

Dave:

Well, and it's a gray area because it's not like you have anchor points all over the place. Again, you're in that tweener distance so, when I say that tweener distance, you're not 18 and a half foot so you're not using traditional lanyards. You're going to be using SRL's. Then a lot of it's how you even climb and get to that level, that 10 foot level.

Fred:

Right. Number four is respiratory protection. That was number four last year as well so I'm sure that's one that never leaves. That's one of those ones that never leaves the list.

Dave:

Yeah.

Fred:

Number five-

Dave:

How did it break those down?

Fred:

What was the number one?

Dave:

Yeah.

Fred:

It was an employer shall provide a medical evaluation to determine the employee's ability to use a respirator before the employee is fit tested. That was number one so, so there's a lot of people you just get hired and you start wearing a respirator without doing that test.

Dave:

Well, we have people all the time coming here they want to have a fit test and the first thing out of our mouth is ...

Fred:

Did you have your medical evaluation done?

Dave:

We kind of, basically the way the standard reads is you're required to have A before B. You can't fit test and then go figure out and this real quick as everybody argues, well why. The reason that there is because really there's two or three things. One is the psychological issue that you have. Some people are claustrophobic and the last thing you want to do is have somebody that would have failed the medical evaluation on that for you to put something tight around their face and they lose their shit on you. So you got that and then you got the fact that maybe the guy really doesn't have the pulmonary function to try to do it and you start fit testing him and he kills over and has a heart attack because he couldn't breathe well enough to be wearing said respirator.

Fred:

So most of the violations are between that or the second one is having a written program. Written and maintaining a written with work site specific procedures and making sure it's updated.

Dave:

Updated is the key. Most people will write it and then it becomes this document that lives in a filing cabinet and all the sudden in their hazardous communication they bring a new chemical compound in because the old compound wasn't doing the same thing or that their supplier sold them something better and it actually changes what, maybe changes what kind of respirator cartridge or where they have to wear them or they use it in a new area. They didn't account for the fact that that dynamically changed everything.

Fred:

Number five is Lockout-tagout. Looks like number one is procedures shall be developed, documented and utilized for the control of potentially hazardous energy. That's one that a lot of people don't have a written Lockout-tagout program.

Dave:

No.

Fred:

That's out there. That's an easy one probably to walk in the door and be like, hey, where's your written program. Oh, we don't have a written program. All right, that's a problem.

Dave:

That would probably be if the guy is getting paid per citing, it'd be my first one to ask because I know that people don't have it. And if they have it it's probably not, how to say, to the letter specifically right.

Fred:

Yup. And then it looks like, other than that it's doing periodic inspections at least annually which, which once again people aren't updating these programs.

Dave:

No. Every program or anything that you're doing, at least once a year you should really break that out and get the safety manager, somebody that actually, a worker bee or somebody that actually is ...

Fred:

Doing the work.

Dave:

Doing the work doing the work, and to sit around and go, man, is this really still how we're doing this. Because all of a sudden they're going to go, no boss, no, we quit doing that five years ago. Oh, okay, maybe we should update that and train you all because y'all really shouldn't be putting that in your mouth. That's a bad idea.

Fred:

Number six was ladders. The number one cite was when portable ladders are used for access to an upper landing surface, the ladder side rail shall extended at least three feet above the upper landing surface to which the ladder is used to gain access, I'm going to read the rest but ...

Dave:

Well, you've got to be able to step through, theoretically step through the ladder instead of around the ladder. Every time you watch somebody, they climb to the top of the ladder and they swing around which is, that's not how theoretically you're supposed to do it. And there's some aftermarket attachments that people make. I know my guardian has one that kind of clips to the top of the ladder so when you put it up there there's hand rails that kind of come out so fat people like me can actually kind of step through it on to that next surface. And then when you're coming back through, I know me, I'm not very good at heights. I'm scared. I've fallen so my body has figured out I don't like this. My paranoia kicks in, so trying to you sure you got that ladder, you know, really pushing into it because I'm getting right to step around this and I'm already nervous that's why I'm shaking versus actually kind of coming backwards like I'm 90 years old and kind of backing down the steps.

Fred:

You're not supposed to go around the ladder when you get up to the top of it, I didn't even know. So you're supposed to go up and through it. Doesn't that take some flexibility? Not really. You should be able to step right through. Trying to picture myself up on a ladder. Especially getting on, imagine you put one foot on and then your other leg kind of swings around to get on it.

Dave:

Well, that's how most people do it. Read what it says. You need to exit through. Right?

Fred:

I think so. I'm trying to think.

Dave:

Silence, silence, silence.

Fred:

Yeah, anyways, that's a good podcast right there. I'm moving on. Number seven, powered industrial trucks. So looks like most of that is just making sure that the operator is competent to operate a powered industrial truck safely.

Dave:

Which is basically trading. Honky horn, all the good little stuff. If you get seat belts, making sure they know how to go on and off [inaudible 00:28:54].

Fred:

Second citation is kind of frustrating is that in evaluation of each truck, operators performance shall be conducted at least every three years. That doesn't seem like that's asking a lot. Dave's been doing this job for the past 20 years, we don't need to test him on.

Dave:

A lot of it it's those middle cues like that. Complacency. I've been doing this man, I know how to do this, I got this. You will look at the charts and over time the guy that shows up the first day is scared shitless and that's how he stays alive. The guy that gets hurt is the guy that's been doing it over time and is just like, no man, I got this, I'm good.

Fred:

Plus he's probably develop short cuts and little cheats to make his life easier and then all of a sudden you kind of got to refocus those people and be like no, no, no, no, you're doing like five cheats here that are all unsafe. We really need you to do it this right away.

So number eight was machine guarding. I know we get asked about machine guarding a lot. It doesn't really fit into our personal expertise but I know that's something that's been a thing that OSHA has been hitting on for about five years.

Dave:

Shame on the manufacturers there because well, I mean, these people buy equipment and then they sent it in and it doesn't have the safeguards. So the reason that it's cited so much is they're buying cheap stuff that doesn't have adequate protection or safety devices on it when they buy it and like a Rockford Systems or somebody Rockford Systems create a whole plethora of different items that you attach after to again safeguard. Whether it's lathes or saws or whatever that is, is it's all aftermarket and that should, I mean it's 2018, when you buy something it shouldn't be, oh and by the way, you need to go to somebody else and buy all the safety features because we didn't put any of those in there. You wouldn't buy a car without a seatbelt.

Fred:

Right. Number nine is ...

Dave:

Maybe at least one of those 1970's lap belts.

Fred:

Probably Jay Leno's probably got some cars that he's bought without seat belts.

Dave:

My first car that I had was a 1972 AMC Hornet.

Fred:

AMC is a movie theater to me.

Dave:

It was American Motors and then it was the old Jeep and I remember that there were no seat belts in the back but it did have lap belts in the front. That just kind of shows you in my lifetime it's gone from yeah, we kind of got something here for you maybe.

Fred:

They only had seat belts in the front probably because that was the laws that you had to wear a seat belt in the front. You didn't have to wear one in the back.

Dave:

Yup, but I'm just saying. I probably as a kid was partying in the back of that station wagon because it was a station wagon.

Fred:

You look at like kids' car seats and stuff and now they're in like a Cadillac buckled in where they can't move and if anything happens they're good to go, facing rear, you know, it's like ...

Dave:

Well, the car manufacturers even integrate all kinds of hooks and fastening systems to where mom and dad are dead in the front but the kid's playing with his teddy bear in the backseat.

Fred:

The one that we have for our son now, I mean the thing's like got like seat belt things on it that connect to the hooks and you put your hand in the seat and you push down on the seat it click, click, click, click, click and it's done. It's got two like retractable, two retractables that clip into hooks that are built into the seat.

Dave:

Ooh, okay, I felt those. I know what you're talking about.

Fred:

That's four, yup. They clip right in and then you push and the thing is installed safely.

Dave:

Because I know in one point in time that was a big thing that fire departments was doing was swing by and let us make sure that you're putting this stuff in right.

Fred:

They still do that.

Dave:

They still do that?

Fred:

Oh yeah, they still do that.

Dave:

Fit test for car seats.

Fred:

We have one that's expensive and we have one that's inexpensive and the inexpensive one doesn't have that feature so you still have to push it down and then pull on the string, you have to tighten it up. But the expensive ones are like dummy proof. But number nine here on the list was fall protection training requirements. I'm not sure why that gets separated into a different category. I guess it's probably a different, you have 1926- or .509 and one's .503. That's employer should provide a training program for each employee who might be exposed to fall hazards. So that's more on your fall protection training versus fall protection like general requirements.

And the number 10 was electrical wiring methods. And it looks like a majority of those were a substitute for fixed wiring of a structure which I'm not exactly sure what all.

Dave:

They could be extension cords

Fred:

Okay.

Dave:

One of the ones I see cited quite a bit is people take an extension cord and take it through a doorway. Big time no-no. In construction, if you're using, you need to make sure that you have GFCI's because sometimes the power that you're getting is not controlled and you're using power tools which are very susceptible to shock so a lot going in that one.

Fred:

I sat in on a class where they were kind of discussing some of these things and one of their main ones was sometimes people do something just to get the power back on that's like a temporary fix and then it will not be changed until they have another issue so it's like we need a temp fix because I needed that power on because it's time to make the donuts and then you never actually go back and do a more of a permanent fix. That's the exciting OSHA top 10 for this year so hopefully some of that stuff lessens here in 2018.

Anyways, I'll comb through the email box again this week, ask Dave a few questions and if you have questions for us you can reach out to. My email's Fred@quadcitysafety.com. We have our Facebook page or Twitter page or LinkedIn. Reach out at any of those.

Dave:

We actually have a Twitter page?

Fred:

Yeah, we have a Twitter page. I have a personal Twitter page @QCsafetyfred and then Quad City Safety has a Twitter page.

Dave:

I've never twitted.

Fred:

Tweeted.

Dave:

Tweeted.

Fred:

Twatted anyways. Go ahead. Number one, we have a harness that is fraying around the grommets at the legs. Is that enough to fail an inspection and can we kind of touch on the user’s daily inspections of their fall protection?

Dave:

When we talk about grommets, grommets are going to be used in traditional tongue buckle legs which I'm kind of a huge fan on and the main reason I'm a huge fan on those because I'm a portly gentleman myself so if I did not have a belt I could not keep my pants up. So utilizing that method is you don't have any slip and not to say that other devices have slipped but sometimes with mating buckles and friction buckles over time they can kind of loosen. So just to start with I am a fan of your traditional buckles there but when we talk about the fraying is basically those grommets when they're put in is they'll kind of cut a hole and then they have to fix this grommet in.

So part of it every now and then you'll have a manufacturing process that doesn't get that grommet for the tongue buckle right so that you'll kind of see some fraying around. And if you're seeing that fraying then realistically that is a means, I mean if it's just a little bit obviously I wouldn't completely freak out but if you're starting to get any kind of breakthrough where you can kind of feel all the materials not being held by that I would fail that or take that out of service.

Fred:

I saw a picture of one and I sent it to a manufacturer and the manufacturer kind of got back with, well, I can see where that would fail. They went down the checklist and they were doing it but they're like, technically, we still see that is good and able to put into service but it wasn't like crazy fraying but there was definitely fraying around that grommet. I think that's one that kind of gets into a little bit of a gray area.

Dave:

When you're talking about inspections it's all subjective. So it depends on what somebody is looking for and how hard they want to police it. I can inspect something and fail it but somebody else might inspect it and pass it. It's not a perfect science but in all means we're trying to look for imperfections for things that won't work. So when we're working through it is if I see something then I go, I think that that may, like for instance, one of the classic examples that I'll fail a harness on an inspection that is tongue buckle or the grommet is almost falling through, and the guy goes why are you failing that. I go because of this. And he goes, well I don't use that grommet, I use the one higher it. And it's like I can't evaluate it from the standpoint that just you wear it I have to evaluate it from the format that anybody can put this on in any configuration and it be able to work.

Fred:

Number two. What characteristics of an eyeglass make it anti-fog? Even ones that are labeled anti-fog seem to fog up for us.

Dave:

That's real. The reason that it's real is, let's dive into 1990’s.

Fred:

I thought you were about to list off a standard. I was like, oh gosh, he's trying to find 1916.231.

Dave:

No, no, no. You go back to the 90's and all of a sudden right around the late 80's early 90's you started to see the offshore safety glasses to where they were becoming a Made in China item. Well, the whole thing was there Gen 1 of anti-fog was a spray treatment and it was sprayed on the outside of the glass The problem is over time it dissipated. So the chemical that they would put on there would only have, I'm not going to be quoted on this but let's say it was a one year shelf life that it had that anti-fog capability and it wasn't a real good capability but it was better than nothing.

So all of a sudden you blast forward to the 90's and we start offshoring and somebody in China sprays this coating on the glass and then they put it into their warehouse and they wait for somebody from America to order it and then they take it out to the dock and it sits there for another month and then they put it on a boat and it sits there for another month and then the longshoreman go on strike and it sits on the boat for another month after that and finally, but long story short was all the sudden by the time I got it into my warehouse and I shipped it to a customer we had this long period of time and the whole time is this anti-fog glass that this customer was getting ready to buy was buying something that the shelf life of, the coating was almost gone. So it was common for there to be like no anti-fog or limited. Not as good as a good fresh sprayed anti-fog glass.

Then you blast forward to now, now you have wipes that are nanotechnologies that are hydrophobic nanotechnologies. You have ones that are impregnated into the glass. Heck, we even have for instance 3M's putting in Scotchgard into lens configurations. So there's a lot of technology that's out there bouncing around.

Fred:

But isn't there also something that your face sweating ...

Dave:

When you talk about why is something fogging then it becomes, there's a whole different thing is am I in a high humid area. Am I working hard so I'm creating an atmosphere around myself that is that humid area? Am I a person that's going from hot to cold or cold to hot? So there's a lot of different ways that you can create a fogging situation and a lot of times there's not like a perfect recipe for those. For instance, we've had customers that will use, like Pyramex has an I-Force which is a dual lens technology and that one did really good in going from hot to cold and cold hot and we're seeing that in construction environment. Other ones might not do or perform as well.

Fred:

All right. A lot of times and some of like a lot of these safety items you get what you pay for a little bit. So just because a dollar, there's a $1.25 pair of glasses that says not anti-fog and then you're like, but of you spend 1.60 you get the anti-fog. That 35 cents probably isn't getting you anti-fog for like every single environment you're going to.

Dave:

It's just getting you some level of anti-fog.

Fred:

So the third question I got is one that we walked into a little bit. Are we supposed to wear our safety harnesses under or over a winter coat? We wrote A, a blog post on Safeopedia really in the last month or so, by the time this comes out, it might be a couple months but on the topic that we don't believe and sounds like we've got a lot of people agree with us that you should wear it over.

Dave:

We got a lot of people that agree with us but again it's our position versus somebody else's position. I guess the argument being is how many of your workers are actually wearing their harness the way they should today. If everybody is true to their selves they're going to find that very few people are actually wearing the harness the correct way, which when we tighten those leg straps we should be able to get a couple fingers in there. It should be extremely tight. And then when we talk about that chest strap we should be able to roll our fist in so think about how tight that is and how tight that needs to be. Over jeans and just a T-shirt, that's pretty hard to get in there and get right.

And the reason that needs to be done is if we're in a fall that system or that harness is made to distribute those fall arresting forces throughout the body and put a lot of it into the torso. So if we have slack there we create a shock or we're putting a very high level of shock in a very specific place that just happens to be one where you were talking about orthostatic intolerance. There's a huge artery there, the femoral artery that we're putting a significant amount of shock to and suspension trauma is the code word for there. So as we're hanging we're clotting and we're dying hanging there.

If I've got my, if I'm wearing more in Carhartt's and I'm in the middle of North Dakota and I'm going to put my harness in over my coveralls, I just personally and talk to a lot of people that don't believe that that's going to, you're not going to get put on right. So when you do fall then you've got that chance for the orthostatic intolerance. So while some of the stuff that's bouncing around there there's no whether it's ANSI or OSHA, nobody comes out and says ye shall do it this way. And so, my position is to say people that wear it over the top I think are wrong and just because their people won't adjust the harness correctly.

Fred:

I mean that's probably mostly as a best practice because there's no written standard for it. So like when we got some feedback from the manufacturer that or someone got in touch with one of the manufacturers and they were saying, well they tested it over the top of a harness and they tested it or over the top of a coat and they tested it underneath the coat on a dummy and they did the drop test and they both performed the same well, kind of what you're saying is humans aren't dummies. So you can pull something pretty tight on a dummy and he's not going to say a peep. He's not saying shit. You put it on a homie that's out there in the field and he like-

Dave:

Well, you take a little portly guy like me and by the time I get my coveralls on ...

Fred:

It's going to be so tight against you you're not going to wear it right.

Dave:

No, I'm going to bomb a little bit bigger and then you tell me I've got to get this harness to where I can get two fingers in there. First of all I'm going to have to pull my coveralls up into my butt crack, so I'm going to have them and then I'm probably going to need you to, hey Fred, can you come over here and pull this strap because I can't do this by myself. Nobody's going to do that. But, you know, oh well.

Fred:

Pretty much our recommendation that we do have a lot of manufacturers and industry experts that agree with us on the topic. Speaking of pullback, did you ever see, have you seen kind of the trend in college football where they have a hold back guy or like the coach will start getting a little bit too much on the field and something like the strength coach or something will be like back behind him like holding on to his pants so he doesn't get too far on the field and get a penalty?

Dave:

Yeah, I have seen that.

Fred:

I've started seeing that like more and more. So you got to hire your own hold back guy.

Dave:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:47:38] needs to get him one for basketball.

Fred:

He does.

Dave:

He's been kind of dancing out there a lot lately.

Fred:

He likes to get involved. Other than I had on my list here to talk about today was human Uber. I read an article today and ...

Dave:

I read that in the notes and you got me.

Fred:

This is happening in Japan, the human Uber. So you can hire somebody basically to strap an iPad to their head, so they strap an iPad up on their head so that your face is facing, you're talking into the iPad on like face time, so your face is on their face and then you can send them somewhere for you. You got like there's like a wedding you're not going to be able to make it to, you hire this human Uber, he straps the iPad to your face, you're sitting at home on your couch, everyone gets to see your face on his face at the wedding like talking to different people.

Dave:

Did you see that? It looked spooky.

Fred:

Yeah, it looked really stupid.

Dave:

So how does the person see that's got an iPad on her face?

Fred:

I'm not exactly positive on how that works out but I was thinking in safety, imagine you're a safety director and you're like, I can't get to all my job sites so I'll have one of the dudes strap an iPad to his face and go walk around and see what everybody's doing. He can get a watch on five different job sites in a day if he hires the human Uber.

Dave:

The human Uber safety director. We should probably go ahead and trademark.

Fred:

Start bringing that over to the United States. I could've told you this story about the human over and then been like, hey, what do you bet that's coming from and nine out of 10 times you'd be like that's got to be in Japan.

Dave:

Got to be.

Fred:

There's no other place.

Dave:

Nobody else would do that.

Fred:

Nope. All right, that's all I got for today. Time to get going. Hope you liked the show and hope you got some like negative value out of it, out of all our bullshit that we're talking. If you have a good time and want more subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or SoundCloud, you'll never miss an episode. Next week we'll be back and we hope you'll be back too.

Dave:

We appreciate you joining us guys as we kind of try to figure this all out one grain of sand at a time.

Fred:

Yup. So thanks for listening. One of the best parts of doing the podcast is hearing what you all have to say. So whether it's good or bad, we'd really love to hear your comments. If you have any questions we'd love to answer them on the show. You can always jump into the social media conversations, Quad City Safety, LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter. Safety has no quitting time, until next time, bye bye.

Outro Speaker:

Thanks for listening in to Dave and Bacon's Safety Tales brought to you by Quad City Safety. Send us your questions on Facebook LinkedIn or Twitter at Quad City Safety #safetytales. Or email them to Fred at qaudcitysafety.com. He's the guy keeping this mess of a show in line. And if you like the show please rate and interview us on iTunes. It's a kick ass way to show that you care about safety.